[ytlee]

引用框（Givemecoffee ＠ 10-06-2010 - 06:55）

2.我们所说的情况和列举的论文买卖并不是同一回事。对于你给出的论文剽彻,买卖行为，本人也不耻。
3.重述一下我回贴的意思，如果一个人的论文只要核心和重点是他完成的，他找一个人帮他做了一个CMG模型，这个CMG模型是让他做一个对比，并不是crimal.也不属于不诚实行为。这个CMG模型虽然很重要，但并不是他论文的全部，也不是核心。你可以在论文里面说明，这部分是在XX帮助下完成的不就行了。很多人会遇到我讲的这种情况。我只希望每个人去做他最擅长的事情，术有专攻对学生最为重要，而不是什么都要去学，有多少吹嘘自已多才多艺，全才全能的人往往一无是处。做论文的学生都是研究生，对于研究生最重要的就是尽快在某一点上占到学术的前沿，把时间重点分配到他的主要研究方向上，这才是社分工的价值所在。
4.我自已教训就是这样，就编程来说：编程语言从basic,fortran,c/c++,pasical,汇编;borland c++,VC++,qt,Visula fortran/intel visula fortran,TCL,IDL,MATLAB,操练了个遍，有些还拿了认证，但是最终却后悔没有把精力集中于一个开发环境VC++.所以在编程方面，我和你的差距很大。
5.在道德上我不认为你为此站在高点，虽然我喜欢正义的人，所以不用遗憾，当我告诉你，偶是一个老师。

I showed your reply to my colleagues. I did not receive one single reply that is on your side. I can repeat those harsh words in this forum. They are too colorful for the public.

My annual china tour is coming up very soon. I will discuss your reply with your peers. Le's wait and see what my classmates who are professors in university and their students' reactions.

As a teaching professional suggesting plagiarism is simply WRONG. There is no if or but about it

Personally, ethics and plagiarism issues are not "站在高点" issues. They are all about personal integrity. You seems to be sleeping on the lession of "doing the right things when no one was looking". You can't use the ends to jusify the needs.

[Givemecoffee]

引用框（ytlee ＠ 10-06-2010 - 04:41）

引用框（Givemecoffee ＠ 10-06-2010 - 06:55）

2.我们所说的情况和列举的论文买卖并不是同一回事。对于你给出的论文剽彻,买卖行为，本人也不耻。
3.重述一下我回贴的意思，如果一个人的论文只要核心和重点是他完成的，他找一个人帮他做了一个CMG模型，这个CMG模型是让他做一个对比，并不是crimal.也不属于不诚实行为。这个CMG模型虽然很重要，但并不是他论文的全部，也不是核心。你可以在论文里面说明，这部分是在XX帮助下完成的不就行了。很多人会遇到我讲的这种情况。我只希望每个人去做他最擅长的事情，术有专攻对学生最为重要，而不是什么都要去学，有多少吹嘘自已多才多艺，全才全能的人往往一无是处。做论文的学生都是研究生，对于研究生最重要的就是尽快在某一点上占到学术的前沿，把时间重点分配到他的主要研究方向上，这才是社分工的价值所在。
4.我自已教训就是这样，就编程来说：编程语言从basic,fortran,c/c++,pasical,汇编;borland c++,VC++,qt,Visula fortran/intel visula fortran,TCL,IDL,MATLAB,操练了个遍，有些还拿了认证，但是最终却后悔没有把精力集中于一个开发环境VC++.所以在编程方面，我和你的差距很大。
5.在道德上我不认为你为此站在高点，虽然我喜欢正义的人，所以不用遗憾，当我告诉你，偶是一个老师。

I showed your reply to my colleagues. I did not receive one single reply that is on your side. I can repeat those harsh words in this forum. They are too colorful for the public.

My annual china tour is coming up very soon. I will discuss your reply with your peers. Le's wait and see what my classmates who are professors in university and their students' reactions.

As a teaching professional suggesting plagiarism is simply WRONG. There is no if or but about it

Personally, ethics and plagiarism issues are not "站在高点" issues. They are all about personal integrity. You seems to be sleeping on the lession of "doing the right things when no one was looking". You can't use the ends to jusify the needs.

我更正一个地方：我的想法是:"doing the 'right' things ，即时别人知道"。其实我不用关心别人知不知道，因为他不是一件错误的事。所以应该理解为什么我seems to be sleeping，但不是on the lession,而是on the bed.
当你再向你的同事征询答案时，我希望他来看这个贴子，而不是通过你的转诉。我100%的肯定你在转诉时已经偏离了客观（请参考例证一：Personally, ethics and plagiarism issues are not "站在高点" issues. 因为这种行为对于personal integrity根本就没有伤害，它不是一个错误的行为）。这让我想起我的女同事总是在我们面前转诉她老公/公婆如何如何地对她不好，如何如何的不可意议，其实我对他老公很了解，所以才对其他同事表露的公愤感到浪费表情。当你能客观转诉我的观点时（这句我可以强调吗？），我建议你应该咨询律师或者法律顾问，100个非专业人士的答复并不能代表他的正确，请相信专业和专业分工，而我如果对你说我已经为此向一个从事知识产权的律师咨询过了，但是我又不能保证我的陈述是客观的，所以在此不作为支撑我的证据。
另外欢你到大陆来。但是请不要你所讲的学术不端和我们讨论的话题对等。如果有所发现，也不要过分悲观，就象你以前劝过我那样的，事情正在向好的改变。
（注：ylee的引用内容是我曾经写过的贴子，与最终的贴子内容不同，但是都是我的文字）

[ytlee]

To GivemeCoffe

If you suggest to the student to post his/her works and let other to verify it. It is acceptable if the student include the reference to works by other. but if you suggest let some other do the work and the student includes the result in his/her work. The end result (the thesis) may be a better theisis but on ethic ground, it is NOT.

Let me put it this way, would it be even better if someone who is more qualified doing the complete theisis and grant the student the diploma. Will that save time & money. Why not just print the diploma and give that to the students. That save your time in teaching.

IMHO, teaching is more than showing the student how-to nor the piece of sheepskin. At the end of the day, I want them to be a better person. If I have to select one, i take a better person over a skilled person. How about you.

[frog]

Based on my research experience in US, I strongly agree with ytlee.

As a graduate student, we should demonstrate our ability in developing a research model and testifying the model by ourselves. We can borrow or use other people's models to test and validate our work, which is only a part of our literature review and the final discussion. We can't just use other people's work and run some case studies as the main content of our thesis or dissertation.I remember my supervisor said:" that just some homework assignment not the graduate research." Currently, he encourages us to stick to developing the model and code by our own selves. Even we have to borrow other people's model, we need to show some innovation or new techniques to further develop the model.And of course, we should reference the work done by other people.

[Givemecoffee]

引用框（ytlee ＠ 10-06-2010 - 06:41）

To GivemeCoffe

If you suggest to the student to post his/her works and let other to verify it. It is acceptable if the student include the reference to works by other. but if you suggest let some other do the work and the student includes the result in his/her work. The end result (the thesis) may be a better theisis but on ethic ground, it is NOT.

Let me put it this way, would it be even better if someone who is more qualified doing the complete theisis and grant the student the diploma. Will that save time & money. Why not just print the diploma and give that to the students. That save your time in teaching.

IMHO, teaching is more than showing the student how-to nor the piece of sheepskin. At the end of the day, I want them to be a better person. If I have to select one, i take a better person over a skilled person. How about you.

引用框（ytlee ＠ 10-06-2010 - 06:41）

To GivemeCoffe

If you suggest to the student to post his/her works and let other to verify it. It is acceptable if the student include the reference to works by other. but if you suggest let some other do the work and the student includes the result in his/her work. The end result (the thesis) may be a better theisis but on ethic ground, it is NOT.

Let me put it this way, would it be even better if someone who is more qualified doing the complete theisis and grant the student the diploma. Will that save time & money. Why not just print the diploma and give that to the students. That save your time in teaching.

IMHO, teaching is more than showing the student how-to nor the piece of sheepskin. At the end of the day, I want them to be a better person. If I have to select one, i take a better person over a skilled person. How about you.

你的建议和想法很好。在学术方面保持诚实值得我们采纳和警醒。
有些方面是不能忽略的：
在做一个论文时，用软件去建一个模型并不是考查一个论文的质量的要点（除非有创新性的修改）。
我做老师的经验发现学生总是在焦虑应该学很多东西但是还没有学：petrel没有学，gocad没有学，rms没有学，ecipse没有学，cmg没有学，ecrin没有学，pipesim没有学，fortran没学精，MFC没学好，maple不会用，matlab不精通，油藏数值模拟书上的实例没有练习过，试井的公式怎么推导，新的地震解释方法又出来了，新出版的专业期刊论文没看过，好象应该学会FEPG，怎么这种类型的油藏一点概念也没有，我该懂测井吧，我还应该学会地震解释吧，懂得实验的测量过程对于资料的应用是很有好处的，这个状态方程计算效果这么差我该到physical letter A上去找一个新方法，这么多油藏的开发方法我都不知道，ORIGIN做二维数据分析这么棒可惜我没有时间学，我承担的项目进展为什么没有进展，我的英语又有几天没学了，同学都有几篇论文发表了可是我还没有一篇,...,我快/过了25岁了天啊老爹老妈还在供我读书,我体形变了应该增加体育煅炼时间，并行算没有实践过，云计算我们老板都没搞过，...
如果精力有限，就需要取舍，学得精和学得全总是不可兼得。
记得有篇鸡汤短文，大意是说过：不忘记别人能够帮助你，是催生团队精神的动力。

[firework]

关键是度的问题。

国外很多paper都是合作的，如果相关人员都对论文的核心有贡献，就应该都是作者。对文章有贡献，但是比较次要的作用，可以在文章结尾acknowledge一下。这两者之间的界限稍微有些模糊。仅仅使用了别人的数据，图片，文字，加上引用就可以了。

[ytlee]

引用框（Givemecoffee ＠ 10-06-2010 - 11:03）

[ 我做老师的经验发现学生总是在焦虑应该学很多东西但是还没有学：petrel没有学，gocad没有学，......，我的英语又有几天没学了，同学都有几篇论文发表了可是我还没有一篇,...,我快/过了25岁了天啊老爹老妈还在供我读书,我体形变了应该增加体育煅炼时间，并行算没有实践过，云计算我们老板都没搞过，...
如果精力有限，就需要取舍，学得精和学得全总是不可兼得。
记得有篇鸡汤短文，大意是说过：不忘记别人能够帮助你，是催生团队精神的动力。

I was sitting in a drilling and completion meeting when I read your reply.

We all want to stand out and be productive. We want to make our parent proud. That is human nature. I fully understand the pressure of the students.

I have 3 kids in college and I faced the samee pressure when I was in graduate school. I know the pressure are real and it is a task that we, as a mentor, should do our best to help them overcome.

As a mentor myself, I understand the responsibility and the challenge in helping the young students to archive their goals. I do not have all the answers but I would like to offer what I found. They are not meant to end the discussion because my suggestions are not perfect and may not fit all situations. Before I list my suggestion, I like to disclose how I pick up this training technique. I learned it from my colleagues of the memtor team at ConocoPhillips.

For students (or young professionals) who are not yet mastering the subjects for a given task, rather then holding their hands or give them the answers they needed, The scope of the task is expanded and add members who have the skills set that compensate each other. The task may take longer and cost more, but the end result are better students.

Some may wonder how my suggestions differ than Givemecoffee. Both use help from fellow students (team member). I think the difference is how our team member handle the result of the works done by other.

In our system, the team members are individually doing their own assignment but they are collaborating their tasks towards the project. THey meet to make task assignment, they track their progress and evaluate their own result. We give them our opinion of their methodologies and ensure they are on the right track. In their report presentation, they only present their own work but can reference team members' result to support their finding. All external works must be properly credited.

One more note I like to add, the ethic and rules we follow is not much different than what we used helping our own kids in school project http://soinc.org/ethics_rules.

[anancloud]

Thanks for your sharing!^^

[月亮湾]

谢谢你资料

[清风一缕]

非常感谢，原来接触ECL，想接触一下CMG，感谢分享!!